Young Jedi: Legacy's Shadow OOC

[Jagtai]

That's fine.

How involved will he be?

And what is it with you Americans and your sweeping, galaxy-wide storylines?

[Halomek]

Up to you how deeply you want to get involved, Jag.

We can keep it as a story beat that shows Kalja Sairu being responsible and informing her fellow Jedi about a growing threat or we can expand on it and give Aldar something more to do.

As for your other question...

There's definitely a place for more cozy, location-centric stories. I happen to enjoy what Tal and I are writing with the Hapes thread quite a lot.

However, the impetus behind the travels of Kalja Falanis and Cadence is to go galaxy-hopping and revisit locations and characters from our canon and see how things have developed since we saw them twenty years ago in Legends. The deal with the tree is mostly a way to add an overarching narrative to their journey. It'll also help to close the book on a bunch of dangling plot threads that were never expanded upon back in the day.

[Jagtai]

Well, I intend to have the three kids get into trouble, and have Mira (and to some extent Aldar) bail them out.

But I don't mind getting Aldar involved too. He has some useful skills, as does Mira.

And I just meant that I enjoy character-based stories, while a lot of the board seems to like the 'mary sue takes on big bad evil dude"-stories

[Pryde]

That's fine.

How involved will he be?

And what is it with you Americans and your sweeping, galaxy-wide storylines?

Don't ask me, I wanted to bury this one but Halo insisted so here we are.

[Jagtai]

Don't ask me, I wanted to bury this one but Halo insisted so here we are.

[Halomek]

It's a good concept that didn't get a proper story the first time around, so sue me!

Anyway, the tree is us starting things off light. There are much more dangerous foes still lurking in the shadows.

[Jagtai]

Please warn me in advance, so I can move my characters as far away from the action as possible. Wouldn't want to get in the way of all the Mary Sues

Anyway, Aldar can arrive whenever you want.

[Pryde]

My characters are better classified as Mary Suepport. >.>

Seriously, though, I grew out of my need for Mary Sue characters a while ago. I indulge in bad habits here because there's a lot less pressure to get it right the first time. I am still agonizing over the first chapter of my book and making zero progress. ><

[Jagtai]

Same, I'm much more interested in what makes people tick these days.

I still have some Mary Sues, though

First chapter? I have started 100+ books that never got anywhere

[Pryde]

For real, though, support characters are the real heroes. But very rarely do I get to play one that doesn't just become a heal bot because of bad choices the other players in the party make. ><

But entire DnD campaigns would have failed if not for me. /flex

[Pryde]

Same, I'm much more interested in what makes people tick these days.

I still have some Mary Sues, though

First chapter? I have started 100+ books that never got anywhere

Trying to focus on just the one right now and get it done, but I can't get out of my own head.

[Pryde]

Some good did come out of my anal attention to detail, though. I've learned to identify and break a lot of really bad habits (like using words like "really" >< ). Most of which I haven't been correcting here because screw it. I come here to give my brain a rest and to remind myself why I enjoy writing in the first place.

[Jagtai]

I'm a better writer now, but I still write my scenes as if everyone can see them. I'm trying to add more details, but...

...I wanna get to the action (which may just be a conversation, but still) - not explain that the tree was tall, and old, and green with a bit of brown because the autumn was closing in, and...

...use your damn imagination already!

That said, I know that I need to describe things. I just suck at it.

[Halomek]

Mary Sue is a term that tends to get overused, IMO. A character can be powerful without being a Mary Sue.

All of my characters have flaws, even Kalja Sairu - who I'll admit most often treads the line of being a Mary Sue, but she's also the character I've probably inflicted the most trauma on. She's been forced to watch friends and family die in front of her on multiple occasions, been kidnaped, depowered, possessed, had her power misused, nearly killed, and forced into impossible choices that result in the deaths of hundreds or millions (at least three times).

She's also the longest running character I have. Just trying to write out her history for her wiki article is making it one of the longest entries on the site.

[Pryde]

I'm a better writer now, but I still write my scenes as if everyone can see them. I'm trying to add more details, but...

...I wanna get to the action (which may just be a conversation, but still) - not explain that the tree was tall, and old, and green with a bit of brown because the autumn was closing in, and...

...use your damn imagination already!

That said, I know that I need to describe things. I just suck at it.

Oddly enough, that's one of the bad habits I needed to break. Well... learn not to do, anyway. I never really did spend a lot of time describing things either, but I'd always conisdered that a failing and not a vitue. But after listening to the advice of more successful authors it turns out in most cases less is more. The reader is never going to see the scene exactly how you picture it, so it's better to just give them enough and let them run with their own imagination. Think Sanderson, he rarely ever stops to describe the scene. Literally just gives you the bare minimum most of the time. If the description of a room goes on for a page or more it should probably be trimmed down to at least a paragraph. Unless there is something about the description that is super important and integral to the story.

I'd focus on a few specific details, ideally anything that triggers one of the five senses. Sight and sound often get over used, though, touch is nice, smell is better and if you can work in taste do it. But yea, there's a few handy writer's tools online that will break down all your descriptions and tell you how many you have involving sight, sound, touch, taste, smell, etc. Supposed to help you vary your descriptions so they don't get stale, that's what's important. Not "more," but "varied" description.

[Jagtai]

Mary Sue is a term that tends to get overused, IMO. A character can be powerful without being a Mary Sue.

All of my characters have flaws, even Kalja Sairu - who I'll admit most often treads the line of being a Mary Sue, but she's also the character I've probably inflicted the most trauma on. She's been forced to watch friends and family die in front of her on multiple occasions, been kidnaped, depowered, possessed, had her power misused, nearly killed, and forced into impossible choices that result in the deaths of hundreds or millions (at least three times).

She's also the longest running character I have. Just trying to write out her history for her wiki article is making it one of the longest entries on the site.

I have characters like that myself. Granted, most of them won't be brought over (my Sith lords will stay in the past), but I'm considering reviving Subject 911 - easily my most Mary Sue-ish character. But my interest is in her psychological and mental development - even if she could wade through armies and still function, that was never the point.

I don't have a problem with powerful characters, except when their power becomes a crutch and the focus - then they become Mary Sues. I DO have an issue with the "we must have a galaxy-level threat" nonsense we always used to have. We've lost several planets to Sivter, we lost Korriban to the DSIII, and what not. Most of it wasn't needed IMHO.

Oddly enough, that's one of the bad habits I needed to break. Well... learn not to do, anyway. I never really did spend a lot of time describing things either, but I'd always conisdered that a failing and not a vitue. But after listening to the advice of more successful authors it turns out in most cases less is more. The reader is never going to see the scene exactly how you picture it, so it's better to just give them enough and let them run with their own imagination. Think Sanderson, he rarely ever stops to describe the scene. Literally just gives you the bare minimum most of the time. If the description of a room goes on for a page or more it should probably be trimmed down to at least a paragraph. Unless there is something about the description that is super important and integral to the story.

I'd focus on a few specific details, ideally anything that triggers one of the five senses. Sight and sound often get over used, though, touch is nice, smell is better and if you can work in taste do it. But yea, there's a few handy writer's tools online that will break down all your descriptions and tell you how many you have involving sight, sound, touch, taste, smell, etc. Supposed to help you vary your descriptions so they don't get stale, that's what's important. Not "more," but "varied" description.

Yeah, I read somewhere that it is a chinese concept - give a basic description and let the readers imagination do the rest. I'd like to get better at descriptions, but I would never use a whole page. Descriptions are for building the scene, nothing more. The characters are what really matters.

[Pryde]

Conflict is what's important, conflict drives the plot. But it's also tied very closely with character development so it's more or less the same, but a very important distinction. A character's internal conflict is what makes them interesting, their fear versus misbelief. How it changes them over the course of the story is what keeps readers turning pages, but it's not necessarily a requirement for a good story. Characters like Goku who have flat character arcs and very little internal conflict can still be interesting simply by how they change the world around them. (Funny thing about that, the original Goku, whose only motivation was to fight strong guys, is actually more interesting than the Americanized one. Go figure. *shrug* ) Conflict can also be external, though--i.e. those galaxy shattering plotlines you don't like --and still have great character development. The idea that character driven stories and plot driven stories are two separate things is an illusion. Every story is driven by plot and character to some degree or another.

[Pryde]

Internal conflict is still something I struggle with. Sometimes it feels like my life has been too idyllic, like I just haven't lived enough to be able to come up with ideas for ghost events to scar my characters. ><

[Halomek]

I don't have a problem with powerful characters, except when their power becomes a crutch and the focus - then they become Mary Sues. I DO have an issue with the "we must have a galaxy-level threat" nonsense we always used to have. We've lost several planets to Sivter, we lost Korriban to the DSIII, and what not. Most of it wasn't needed IMHO.

To be fair, I created an OOC to address the board so none of what happened during the War of Darkness with the Charon would be a surprise. I also picked Alsakan because not many people would miss it even though it would be considered important in-universe. I also recall you wiped out Fuller on your own to help with the War of Darkness storyline, Jag.

I've always tried to make any violence caused by my villains to have some meaning beyond senseless destruction. The massacre on Vorzyd V was not only one of the lowest points in Kalja Sairu's life, but it also resulted in the death of Elena Connor's family - putting her on a path of vengeance for the rest of the War of Darkness. The Battle of Alsakan humbled the big two and several other factions into uniting together into eventually stopping Sivter. The Alsakan battle also has a wonderful duel of intellects between Sivter and Garrett Granth as the two try to outsmart each other that pays off later during the Battle of Mon Calamari.

The fun thing about Sivter is he always made things personal with whoever ran afoul of him. He was always more interested in turning others to the Dark Side rather than outright killing them which I think helped get other members more invested in the War of Darkness as opposed to some of the other galaxy-level threats that popped up in Legends. It's also why his ultimate defeat/death during the Battle of Arcanix was so cathartic - it was literally years in the making.

[Pryde]

Mary Sue is a term that tends to get overused, IMO. A character can be powerful without being a Mary Sue.

Overused incorrectly and often. I don't know if I would classify any of the characters we've written here as Mary Sues, even back in my heyday when a lot of my characters tended to be just a little bit OP. Like they weren't perfect, Caitlyn was argumentative and quick to temper, Isis was impulsive and reckless, Adrian kept secrets, even away from family. These are not the qualities of a Mary Sue. Mary Sues are perfect, absolutely flawless, loved by everyone and completely uninteresting. ><

For real, though, some of the arguments Caitlyn and Akain got into stressed me out IRL. Talk about method role play.

[Jagtai]

To be fair, I created an OOC to address the board so none of what happened during the War of Darkness with the Charon would be a surprise. I also picked Alsakan because not many people would miss it even though it would be considered important in-universe. I also recall you wiped out Fuller on your own to help with the War of Darkness storyline, Jag.

I've always tried to make any violence caused by my villains to have some meaning beyond senseless destruction. The massacre on Vorzyd V was not only one of the lowest points in Kalja Sairu's life, but it also resulted in the death of Elena Connor's family - putting her on a path of vengeance for the rest of the War of Darkness. The Battle of Alsakan humbled the big two and several other factions into uniting together into eventually stopping Sivter. The Alsakan battle also has a wonderful duel of intellects between Sivter and Garrett Granth as the two try to outsmart each other that pays off later during the Battle of Mon Calamari.

The fun thing about Sivter is he always made things personal with whoever ran afoul of him. He was always more interested in turning others to the Dark Side rather than outright killing them which I think helped get other members more invested in the War of Darkness as opposed to some of the other galaxy-level threats that popped up in Legends. It's also why his ultimate defeat/death during the Battle of Arcanix was so cathartic - it was literally years in the making.

I know that I offered Fuller, but that was partly to change up the BSC, which was mainly driven by a need to expand - I wanted to change that, make it more character-driven.

And the War of Darkness wasn't the worst storyline ever, but some of the Cult characters were insanely OP. I remember the fight between Obscurus and Crix on Chalacta, where it ended in a stalemate (that was fun to write though).

Maybe it's because I've always enjoyed writing with others, but I'm also very bad at it. I prefer to plan out my stories, which is difficult to do when you write with someone else.

[Jagtai]

Internal conflict is still something I struggle with. Sometimes it feels like my life has been too idyllic, like I just haven't lived enough to be able to come up with ideas for ghost events to scar my characters. ><

Oh, me too. I've had it easy, so it's really difficult to come up with ways to challenge my characters, too.

[Mir]

For real, though, some of the arguments Caitlyn and Akain got into stressed me out IRL. Talk about method role play.

If you want true weirdness, we started that in 2007/2008. In Fall 2008 I met my now ex, named Caitlin (peayitforward on here), had a rough initial go of it because of how we interacted and we later adopted a cat we found abandoned (Selena).

Real life inverted the boards, because it was she who left and went overseas (Akain leaving), but when she returned we broke up. But that was 2016.

And then a few months later I met the goat, the co-holder of the world tag team championship of the world.

I didn't intend for Akain to be my main character, it was Isaac, but he is by far the person I've written that's most like me, both then and now.

[Halomek]

That's pretty crazy, but they say to write what you know, Mir.

My favorite way to look at character development is a quote from Vladimir Nabokov:

The writer's job is to get the main character up a tree, and then once they are up there, throw rocks at them.

I've always taken it to mean that good story development comes when you give a character a dilemma to solve, but that you don't make it too easy for them. The reward (or sometimes punishment) that follows after the dilemma is taken care of will feel more earned. As such I've thrown a lot of rocks at a lot of my characters.

Kalja Sairu has probably had it the worst when it comes to rock throwing. Although it did have an interesting effect with how other members saw her. Her addition to the Jedi Council and her promotion to Jedi Master was entirely out of my hands. IIRC, I think Coron nominated her to be a member of the council because of the writing I did with her in his threads. Then Shaggy had Daer'Gunn grant her the title of Master because of how active she was as a Jedi Council member.

[Jagtai]

I feel that I've never been a very good writer. I'm bad at descriptions (or at least I thought so), and not very good at character conflict. At least my characters are (well, tend to be) interesting (I think).

The 'conflict' was always external - thrust into a war or battle - and never focused on the characters themselves. Conflict only really worked when I wrote with someone else.

I think I'm getting/have gotten better, though.

[Pryde]

That's pretty crazy, but they say to write what you know, Mir.

My favorite way to look at character development is a quote from Vladimir Nabokov:

The writer's job is to get the main character up a tree, and then once they are up there, throw rocks at them.

I've always taken it to mean that good story development comes when you give a character a dilemma to solve, but that you don't make it too easy for them. The reward (or sometimes punishment) that follows after the dilemma is taken care of will feel more earned. As such I've thrown a lot of rocks at a lot of my characters.

Kalja Sairu has probably had it the worst when it comes to rock throwing. Although it did have an interesting effect with how other members saw her. Her addition to the Jedi Council and her promotion to Jedi Master was entirely out of my hands. IIRC, I think Coron nominated her to be a member of the council because of the writing I did with her in his threads. Then Shaggy had Daer'Gunn grant her the title of Master because of how active she was as a Jedi Council member.

I feel that I've never been a very good writer. I'm bad at descriptions (or at least I thought so), and not very good at character conflict. At least my characters are (well, tend to be) interesting (I think).

The 'conflict' was always external - thrust into a war or battle - and never focused on the characters themselves. Conflict only really worked when I wrote with someone else.

I think I'm getting/have gotten better, though.

It took me like 40 minutes to read these posts. Come into work and it's like go, go, go. Ugh, I hate cruise season. ><

Um anyway, I think that's more of a world driving the plot situation rather than the character driving the plot. Like things happen and the character reacts to them, basically. I mean, it works but you can make it a bit more interesting by adding contradictions. Like a pacifist character who is constantly being confronted with the choice between sticking to their morals or engaging in violence. Or a character who lacks confidence in themself who is suddenly thrust into a leadership role. There are better examples, but I can't think of them right now. But that's one example of generating internal conflict.

Another way it's been explained to me is to start with a ghost event. Some event in the character's past (traumatic or not, doesn't have to be tragic it could be anything) that has had a significant impact on how they view the world. This event leads the character to believing a lie. An oversimplified example might be, a Trandoshan killed their parents, now they think all Trandoshans are bad. Now you take that character and put them in a situation where they have to work together with a Trandoshan, now they're forced to confront the lie and that leads the character to uncovering the truth.

The heart of internal conflict is desire versus fear. The character has something they want in life, but something is holding them back from getting it. Some fear that is shaped by whatever event happened in their past that lies at the root of their misbelief. At least, that's what I've learned, anyway, from all the research I've done. Understanding it is easy, but putting it into practice? Not so much. ><

Edit:

Ooh! Ooh! Thought of another. A character with a strong moral code who never takes a life (or distastes killing or something, I don't know). Put them in a situation where they have to make a choice, do I kill this person or not? Examples, Batman and the Joker, Luke and Darth Vader, Aang and the Fire Lord, etc.

Edit the Second:

Or an impulsive, reckless character put in a situation where they have to show restraint (i.e. Isis).

[Pryde]

The more I learn about writing the more I realize I didn't know anything at all.

I've been Dunning-Krugered, y'all.

[Halomek]

I've always felt that this board and this community are the perfect place to practice and refine one's writing skills. Being exposed to so many different writing styles and ideas helps to keep the idea mill churning.

At the very least, writing a little something on the regular is a good way to keep those skills from atrophying.

[Pryde]

I thought so too, until I decided to start writing a book. Unfortunately, it's not a one to one translation. Learned that when an author friend of mine looked at my first few chapters and marked a ton of it in red. >< A lot of it was just simplifying my sentence structure, cutting unnecessary words or phrases. I had a tendency (and probably still do) of repeating the same information again and again in different ways rather than introducing new information. Like, "It was night, the air was cold, the moon was out, and the stars were shining." All different ways to say it was nighttime. As opposed to, "It was night, and he liked it that way." A terrible, terrible example, but the point is those are two different pieces of information unlike the first example. That was just one eye-opening experience, I've had a lot more since then. Desire versus fear was another, story structure, pacing, worldbuilding, character arcs, side plots, things I knew exist but didn't know much about. The understanding of the full breadth of knowledge I lack was and still is overwhelming and is kind of contributing to me stalling out at the moment. The paralyzing fear of omg I can't do this is a lot more potent now.

Basically, what I've learned is writing a book (or story) isn't hard. But writing a book that will sell well, a book people are going to enjoy and stick with from beginning to end? That's a whole different beast. But it's probably a good thing I learned that lesson this early in the process, I'm more likely not to cut corners in the interest of saving money. >.>

[Halomek]

I think Jedi Knight is the right title for Caitlyn, even after 20 years.

She hasn't trained anyone and she's let her Jedi skills lapse while she raised her family, so I can't see her achieving the rank of Master between Legends and Legacy.

Nothing wrong with it, IMO, just seems logical... and hey it could be a goal for her to work towards now that she's getting pulled back into action.

Let me know if you think otherwise.

[Pryde]

I was considering maybe she trained someone between Toshiro's and Cadence's birth, six years is a long time. But, I dunno...

Anyway, let me know if you need anything changed.

[Pryde]

Oh and by the way, the special training for Cadence is Soresu. Faye started it, but there's no one better for Cadence to learn it from than Kalja, sooo... *shrug*

Figured Kalja could give her a Tulsar crash course on it. She probably won't ever be a dueling prodigy, but she should at least be able to hold off the bad guys long enough for Kalja to save her.

Edit:

Ugh, I need to stop going through and editing every little bloody thing like it's my freaking manuscript. Writing here is supposed to be my vacation from being anal retentive. ><

[Halomek]

Technically there are a few other Jedi in our Legends canon that list Battle Meditation on their wiki entries, but currently none of their creators are writing in Legacy - so it's basically moot.

Even if I missed someone, I think it's safe to say Kalja might be the most famous user of it. Off the top of my head, I think she used it at least three different times in Legends.

When it comes to Soresu, Kalja most likely has the greatest skill and polish with the form, but I'll shine a light on Elena too. She's supposed to be the Tython Temple Blademaster and she was also trained by Tulsar while the two were hiding out on Arcanix, IIRC.

[Pryde]

Technically there are a few other Jedi in our Legends canon that list Battle Meditation on their wiki entries, but currently none of their creators are writing in Legacy - so it's basically moot.

Seems like a lot for an ability that literally made Bastila special because only she could do it.

[Halomek]

Are you suggesting that our Legends canon was rife with power creep?

[Jagtai]

Technically there are a few other Jedi in our Legends canon that list Battle Meditation on their wiki entries, but currently none of their creators are writing in Legacy - so it's basically moot.

Seems like a lot for an ability that literally made Bastila special because only she could do it.

Bastila Shan was only one of many Jedi who could use Battle Meditation, so it wouldn't be unprecedented

Are you suggesting that our Legends canon was rife with power creep?

[Pryde]

Sorry, still here I've just been super busy. ><

I'll have something up soon, but probably not tonight. Got a thing with the fam.

[Halomek]

It is a holiday for US. Enjoy the day!

[Halomek]

There we go. Meeting adjourned.

Pryde, I've left things open if you want to write up a scene or two with Caitlyn or Cassiel on Tython before they depart. Otherwise we can look into starting their mission.

And then, Jag, Kalja should be able to meet with Aldar.

[Jagtai]

Okay

Do you want the meeting to take place in this thread, or in mine?