Remember Midpoint Summit?

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Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Red Dragon »

Looking at the thread (skimmed through the end some) and at the Wiki for it... Nothing seems to really come of it. Though I'm sure something has. But i want to propose something that came from it. Something I'll call the Galactic Defense Accord for now. Now the basic idea for this is a loose set of rules or promises of help should a threat on a galactic scale presents its self. I'd like all your help in fine tuning this some and maybe coming up with some more details.

But one thing i want to add is a part were efforts would be made to better arm the Galaxy as a whole. That means smaller governments, planetary governments and even approved mercenary groups can legally buy and maintain larger capital ships, and should they need help with the purchase the larger government they may be apart of, like the NR or GE, must step in and cover a percentage of the cost, but the owner must be able to maintain and operate the vessel on their own. All in the effort to have more combined military might to bring against the threat.

This of course then leads to the Hydra Project. Put together by the Mon Cal Shipyards, Providence and Starlight Star Drives (Many more can join if they want BTW) and the Element Line of military hardware.

Hydra Project, Named for the many heads of star ship production i hope to see apart of this, is a think tank/design team to make powerful but affordable military vehicles, be they modifications/upgrades of older stuff to completely new designs.

The Element Line is that line of military vehicles. None of it may be hyper advanced but is made from/of proven tech.
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Darkheyr »

An agreement of peace between Jedi Order and Sith Empire is pretty major, me thinks. The rest more or less wasn't supposed to last from minor issues aside.

Balsa and I also started some joint operations between the XE and SE, but he never posts on it! *hinthinthint*

Not sure how feasible a push for local, independent militaries would be. I'd see the NR supporting it, but not the Imps or SE, for obvious reasons.
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Pryde »

I don't really see the NR supporting it either. If their Senate works anything like our Congress I could see a lot of politicians stepping forth and being completely against giving better weapons to independent operators. Heck, just from a practical stand point it wouldn't make much sense. The people we arm today could easily become our enemies tomorrow and they'll be shooting at us with our own guns.
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Pryde »

Ooh, thought of another reason the NR would be against it. All those goody-two-shoes peacemongers would be all like, "We don't need more weapons in the galaxy!" We'd be hearing words like demilitarize and dismantle. These people don't care that Trayus is going to kill us all, they can't be reasoned with!
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Darkheyr »

I could see the NR doing it actually - exactly because of the Empire and the SE. Essentially, band together with smaller governments and try to form a better defended front versus likely future enemies.

They'd be picky about it, I guess. No supporting people likely to ally with Empire/SE instead and such.
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Pryde »

Government sanctioned militias that are a part of and loyal to the NR (which would probably already have access to Republic military hardware), maybe, but not independent operators like mercenaries. Their loyalty goes to the highest bidder, arming them would be like shooting themselves in the foot. Maybe they could send some things to neutral governments that have Republic leanings, that's also possible, I suppose.
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Mir »

Definitely neutral governments, definitely organizations that have ties to the NR. I could see it working with mercenaries, simply because from an intelligence standpoint, it's easier to take out an enemy if you know what their weapons systems capabilities are, and you have an abundance of information on the targets. There is such a thing as having too much information. But fighting someone who's using some random HKD design, versus someone who's using a design that a corporation that's heavily tied to you and mainly works for you built, is something else.

I'd rather go up against a contingent that uses M4s and M249s than a group using other weapons. I know everything about those, how they fire, their range, the noise they make, and most importantly, the jams and problems that an operator might face.
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Archangel »

Also, I don't think--even if the Summit says they have to--that the NR would give their best military hardware to other governments. Better than what they have currently is pretty easy without going all the way up to renting out Home One.
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Balsa »

Oh yeah. XE and SE.
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Darkheyr »

Something else to consider: Why would most mercenaries or companies even want to maintain large capital ships? They don't have much use for them, and they cost ridiculous amounts of money, not to speak of logistical nightmares, especially with maintenance.

I mean, mercs are not going up against other capital ships most of the time. Or companies. More like smaller ships, transports, starfighters, planets without planetary defense.

Now, the NR fortifying neutral worlds against planetary invasion to stall attackers, that I could see. Or investing in escort ships.
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Pryde »

Capital ships are effectively WMDs in this world. I don't really see any government handing out or helping to pay for vessels capable of leveling entire cities to someone whose loyalty can be bought.
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Red Dragon »

The only ship it ink are WMDs are the super capitals. Well the idea behind it is to help defend worlds from extragalactic threats. if there are more ships that can be brought to bear on the threat then the more likely the win. We saw this at Mon Cal, the whole Galaxy saw this there. Of course there would be restrictions on who can apply. There are merc groups that work exclusively with governments and are trusted, just like local planetary governments. There would be a black list of who are exempt...

Hell maybe this accord fails in the end... Or is put down by the nay sayers. In fact maybe that's exactly how i'll play it out. The accord was hastily put into affect just to please the public or something but when they see what it can give rise to its quickly shut down.
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Pryde »

Malak leveled an entire planet with regular capital ships. Granted he had a fleet of them but even so I think one ship could handle a city.
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Darkheyr »

Even the point defense ion cannons of a Providence-class had a firepower per-shot comparable to a 4.8 megaton bomb. You can be quite certain: Every ship with turbolaser batteries can level cities. And continents. And worlds. Some just do it quicker than others.

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Who wants to please what public?
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Pryde »

I know lately there's been a lot of precedence for people wanting to beef up their military to defend against intergalactic threats but I still feel like the peacemonger core inside the NR would still be like, "No new weapons!" Or something along those lines. If I remember correctly, the Edict of Darkness was a stolen vessel and so is the ship Trayus is using right now. So arguments can be made for why putting more big ships in the hands of smaller governments who can't adequately defend themselves is bad.
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Mir »

Even in the EU or Legends, I guess now, the New Republic understood that in order to have peace they needed to have a strong military. That was even after there was a peace of sorts with the Imperial Remnant. Just because the New Republic is peace oriented, doesn't mean that they're all dovey and swords to plowshares all the time.
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Pryde »

Ooh, that gave me an idea. People protesting the creation of new weapons in the streets of Coronet. Would give Caitlyn and her family something to contend with in that thread of mine I plan to revive. >.>
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Pryde »

Mir, why you no like fun? ><
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Darkheyr »

I wouldnt even say that pro peace activists would try and block it, but that EVERYONE would be opposed to a degree. Most organisations couldn't even maintain capital ships, most wouldn't want to try, and most of those that would want to.... Well, why would the Republic grant capital ships to organisations clearly stating their intent to acquire capital ships whose primary function is fleet combat and planetary assault?

You don't exactly need star destroyers to combat pirates, after all. Escort ships, yes. Advisory help, help with maintenance, yes. But why finance mercenary capships?
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Mir »

If this ship was smaller, in the < 400 meters range, I think it'd be a bit easier to work with. From Lancer-class to Carrack-class size.
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Darkheyr »

Yes, pretty much. Escort, patrol and picket ships.
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Archangel »

Mathematically speaking, I'm not sure that this agreement would actually help defend against intergalactic threats. If the NR or GE can afford more capital or supercapital ships... wouldn't they just buy them, maintain them, and crew them on their own? Why give them to someone else, who has less training and fewer personnel? I mean, how would this accord accomplish something other than weakening the major powers to strengthen the smaller ones? If Kuat has the resources to build more, and the Empire has the money to buy more, and they can draft the crew to crew more (assuming they don't already have the manpower)... what benefit is there to giving such a vessel to someone else, even someone deeply allied with the Empire?

Doesn't it just make more sense to say, "Hey, send your navy boys over to our academies, so they can crew our ships as we defend your worlds, which are a constituent of the Galactic Empire"?

The accord that makes the most sense, at least from the perspective of the NR and the GE, is to allow them to draft the able-bodied from their allies during wartime. Maybe none of the independent governments/large mercenary companies would agree to that, but I don't think the major governments are any more likely to agree to giving away resources for renegade militaries that pay no taxes.

Now that I think more deeply on the issue, anyway.
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Darkheyr »

Pretty much. The primary support I could see would be in form of synergies or easing the maintenance. Selling out docks for temporary amounts of time. It is, after all, easier to just rent an NR dock than build one of your own. But even then, I couldn't see the NR helping merc companies finance star destroyers.
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Mir »

Not attempting to make it political, though we're mature here, I view it in a similar light to the United States' annually giving money to other countries to help with their defense, not just economic packages. The United States gives billions of dollars every year, and chunks of that money is for the recipient nation to use on their militaries.
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Archangel »

On the one hand, I can see your point: there is political precedence for financial assistance toward allied militaries.

On the other hand, neither the Galactic Empire nor the New Republic behaves in the same way as the United States when it comes to foreign policy (both preferring to subsume foreign entities rather than trade with them). The Galactic Empire tends to operate more like Nazi Germany or Napoleonic France; the New Republic is more like the United Nations or the various Leagues of Ancient Greece. For these reasons, I don't think that either the Galactic Empire or the New Republic would agree to fund governmental and non-governmental militaries without recompense (such as joining/submitting to either the NR or the GE, which would include submitting citizens to potential drafts, etc.). This brings us back to the question of efficiency: is it more efficient to throw money at potentially ineffective militaries, or to demand that ineffective militaries donate manpower and resources to the effective military of the NR or GE?

On a completely different level, the United States at no time provides sufficient resources to other nations for them to purchase/create nuclear weapons, or even some of our larger non-nuclear weapons (aircraft carriers and such). Why would the NR/GE pay enough for smaller governments to have access to similarly powered weapons?
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Mir »

I wasn't saying that they had to follow the US, but that it exists in real life when it comes to political thought.

As to the last paragraph, depends on how they budget things and save their money, they could. I don't think any of them have any serious navy anyway, besides Russia.
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Red Dragon »

ok so the general consensus is that this Accord likely wouldn't happen. Ok
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

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Well, on the one hand the Empire and the NR could spend the money to purchase the ships and then man them themselves, but the ships aren't they only thing they need to pay for. It costs what? Tens of thousands of credits to train a soldier? Maybe more? It hasn't been really clear how money works in this universe. Anyway, it takes a couple of thousand people to man a capital ship each of whom costing tens of thousands of credits to train. Just manning the thing could probably cost nearly as much as it does to make it. So on that note why not give the ships to someone else? Have them spend the money to train their own officers and soldiers to man them. Have them spend the upkeep to keep the ships running year after year. It costs the Republic and the Empire virtually nothing and if they give it to the right people they still get the added benefit of bolstering their own defense.
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Red Dragon »

Pryde2000 wrote:Well, on the one hand the Empire and the NR could spend the money to purchase the ships and then man them themselves, but the ships aren't they only thing they need to pay for. It costs what? Tens of thousands of credits to train a soldier? Maybe more? It hasn't been really clear how money works in this universe. Anyway, it takes a couple of thousand people to man a capital ship each of whom costing tens of thousands of credits to train. Just manning the thing could probably cost nearly as much as it does to make it. So on that note why not give the ships to someone else? Have them spend the money to train their own officers and soldiers to man them. Have them spend the upkeep to keep the ships running year after year. It costs the Republic and the Empire virtually nothing and if they give it to the right people they still get the added benefit of bolstering their own defense.
Well that was what i was thinking.
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Darkheyr »

Because star destroyers in the hand of mercenaries are still star destroyers in the hand of mercenaries.

And in reality, everyone training their own folks and building up their own maintenance base and collection of know-how balloons cost. It's like an airline operating small amounts of aircraft - its simply unaffordable to build up your own maintenance or pilot training, and thats with business jets; not capital ships.
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Red Dragon »

Well thats just mercenaries, what about local system/planetary governments who are allied with the nr or ge?
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Darkheyr »

Will have similar concerns. Especially the financial ones.

And, of course, I somehow still can't fathom why a planetary government (or mercs) would need or want a star destroyer.
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Red Dragon »

Well, when your planet/system is attacked by a invasion/assault force that simply wants you and all your people dead and the closest large scale friendly fleet is two or three days out. A heavy destroyer would be nice to have to help hold back such an enemy.

Which after recent events its a major concern... At least IMO.
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Cadden »

In most of those conditions, however, one or two capital ships are unlikely to make a significant enough difference. My Mandalorian Incursions campaign comes to mind, here. If the system has a few additional ships of capital class variety to defend themselves with, the likelihood of an attack by my Mandos really won't decrease by any real significant number.

Now, it might work against lower that's like pirates or local thug merc groups, but when it comes to an organized, intentional attack, the detent factor really isn't that high, in this kind of scenario. It might even warrant more likely provocation, depending on the aggressor and their motives and intentions. The presence of these ships could inspire them to come in with the idea of taking them for themselves, in addition to whatever their original idea could have been.

Keeping in mind this kind of scenario only works for a more militant-mined aggressor, and not small-time groups like the aforementioned pirates/mercs.
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Red Dragon »

Now see its so interesting how capital ships are viewed between different people. One says they are too big and expensive to buy and operate on a planetary level, while another sees that even if one was present it wouldn't matter.

I disagree on both in a way. Yeah some underdeveloped world may not be able to operate ship let alone support one, but worlds that have been around since the founding of the galactic republic are surly developed enough or have the capacity to develop what they need to support such a vessel. And yes while one or two capital ships isn't much to throw at a invading force of numerous capital ships, they are mobile weapons platforms that can/will work with other planetary defenses like orbital platforms, Planetary weapon systems and other ships/attack craft they have.

I've played games where my capital ships were horribly outnumbered but i still managed to pull a victory one way or another. Often the enemy would retreat because i caused them more damage then they think I'm worth. Capital ships are big and expensive, so it hurts when one or more are lost in a battle. So when i managed to take out three of their ships with two of mine and an assortment of other options with little to no damage to my own forces, they tend to back off to rethink their moves. So in the end i guess I'm saying "TACTICS".

Now i know this isn't always going to play out all well every time. Only i know how many times i cursed when i screwed up or no mater what i tried to do i was going to lose the planet and my ships. Game didn't allow for a Delaying action either. even if i had more ships on their way it was like time stopped for them and they would never arrive, but here on this board that's not a limitation we have to put up with.


==Rant time==
And what makes everyone think a single planet or system can't build and maintain capital ships on their own? Is everyone forgetting all the evidence to the contrary? The biggest one being Mon Cal? Mon cal which had many large scale capital ships even before they were discovered by the republic? All those ships that were then converted for war with little help or supplies from the Alliance? While SWE has it that there is only one Home one class on mon cal cruiser ( that over 2k cruiser? remember that thing? they built it and maintained it... that one planet/system) but there were others! Now i take wookpedia with a grain of salt like anyone should but in the MOVIE we see there is more then one of those big cruisers. All built without help from the republic military, all converted for war and maintained even during the civil war by the mon cals.

Where kuat or rendilli that had a galaxy spanning economy supporting them, where they had many products they had for sale for just about anyone. There is very little mention of mon cal ships being operated by non mon cals. In fact its stated that till the new republic came around and mon cal became their primary ship provider, only mon cals and quarren could even operate the damn things. Only their fin hands could operate the control and consoles, only their eyes can read the screens right. So they weren't making credits by selling these "products" to the greater galaxy. No one would want to buy any sort of ship that required them to hire one specific race to even fly the damn thing. So again all those MC30s, MC40s, MC80s, MC80 wings, MC80 wingless, MC80As, the big Home one MC80s all built and maintained by ONE planetary/system government. That's pretty damn good for a planet that is 95% +/- WATER and has like 5 different sentient life forms on it that are nearly always at each others throats.
==End Rant==
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Darkheyr »

First off - random game experience has very little relevance to Star Wars and simple logic. Games are dictated by game concerns, such as balance. I mean, I could craft you a very convincing argument about the weakness of Borg cubes based on game experience, despite the entirety of on-screen Star Trek proving me wrong.

Second, of course single planets (though 'Mon Cal' = single planet is an assumption) can maintain a massive fleet. Some of them. But we are not talking about those, but about the governments profiting from your Accord idea. Kuat, Dac, Coruscant, Corellia would not - they'd be the supporters, not the supported. They are also the ones building those capital and supercapital ships for the galaxy, so they automatically have all the necessary know-how and infrastructure in place. What we are talking about are systems and planets were the following becomes relevant:
A single Imperial-class vessel cost the Empire more than twenty times the cost of a EF76 Nebulon-B escort frigate, which was the equivalent of several star systems' annual economic output.
Now, SW is often contradictory in costs and prices, so take that with a grain of salt. Still, its bloody fricken expensive, and still, you could buy a not too insignificant number of smaller ships instead which are infinitely more useful to smaller governments and are still well capable of fending off the threats it most likely encounters. Star destroyers are indomitable fleet combat and invasion ships, excellent at force projection and direct attacks. They are, on such a local scale, pretty invincible. But its just one ship. Its not going to do more than sit there and be invincible at a very specific point. You can't protect three different trade routes, or two different areas in the same space battle. And you are paying a lot of money for it to just sit there and be invincible. And scary, I guess.

And yes, Cadden is right. If you are actually facing an enemy where you need star destroyers to defend yourself... chances are, one of them won't be enough. Any delaying action until help arrives would probably be done easier with multiple smaller ships and fighter squadrons.
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Vox »

Just to add to this:

Remember that one ISD was enough to send fleets running. Not the Mark II version, the original ISD. They were powerhouses. The MK II version simply made it even more fearsome and took some of the weaknesses away. Not to mention it is said in several books that an ISD was used to BDZ planets. Meaning, one ISD could raze an entire planet or force it into submission at the very least rather quickly.

Price wise you have to think of it outside of "real world" economics. If you want to go that route however that is akin to a country like...Syria ($74 Billion GDP)? Or Ukraine ($176 Billion GDP)? Building and maintaining a Nimitz-class aircraft carrier. They cost 'roughly' 4.5 Billion dollars to build (excluding CVN77 George H. W. Bush which was 6.2 Billion due to being a technology bridge/test platform for the Ford Class). Now, that is just to build the carrier. Those carriers cost $8.5 Billion to maintain (us navy website is source). That's to maintain the carrier per year as of FY 2012.

That doesn't include fuel for the fighters, helicopters and E-2C's on board. During a regular deployment a Nimitz-class carrier goes through over 2 million (yes million) gallons of diesel a week. Take the average price of diesel (which isn't the JP-5 refined diesel the Navy uses in aircraft) which is $3.87. x 2000000 = 77.4 million a week in diesel. That doesn't include if that carrier gives diesel to an escort for fuel. Now, you also have to include pay for personnel. So we'll go with the pay of an E-5 with 7 years of service per month excluding taxes and we'll assume the entire ship is married. You are looking at $4800 x 12 = $57,600. Mind you that isn't including flight deck pay, hazardous duty pay or anything for those who work on the flight deck. Or taking into account flight pay or Officer pay AT ALL. So $57,600 x 4,000 crew = $230,400,000 per year in 'median' pay if everyone is enlisted.

So right now our total including build cost is: 13,307,800,000 per year without even adding in aircraft cost. Parts for aircraft maintenance, the cost of ordnance or food.

Shall we keep going? Okay! Right now most Nimitz-class carriers have two Super Hornet Squadrons, a C-Hornet and and a A-Hornet squadron. Plus a Growler Squadron, two Helicopter Squadrons and a Hawkeye Squadron. So...

Two Super Hornet Squadrons: $55.3 million a piece x 24 (two squadrons) = $1.3272 Billion

They don't make Legacy Hornets anymore (A/B/C/D) so we'll go off the original cost: $29 million (as of 2006) x 24 = $696 million

Growlers! Yup the new fancy shiny things! $68.2 million a piece x 5 = $341 million

HSC Helo Squadron flies SH-60S: $28.1 million x 8 = $224.8 million

HSM Helo Squadron flies SH-60R: $42.9 million x 6 = $257.4 million

E-2 Hawkeye Squadron: $176 million x 4 = $704 million

So that doesn't include maintenance of said aircraft. Nor does that include refueling in flight for the hornets or growlers. Add that all up? You get somewhere in the ballpark of $3.597 Billion for purchase of aircraft. So..add that to our previous total...and we've got 'roughly' a cool $17 billion to build and maintain a Nimitz class carrier for its first year. Take away the build cost. Okay, you've got $13 billion 'roughly' per year to maintain it and it's air wing. Now mind you you're spending hundreds of millions to maintain that Air Wing every year. That doesn't include fuel costs for the Air Wing when they are off the carrier either doing training.

So, Syria's GDP is $74 Billion. That is just short of 20% of their GDP for ONE carrier. The Ukraine? That is 10% of their GDP for the first year and every year after it is about 8% of their GDP. Now, you tell me. If you use real world numbers could a country support that? I highly doubt it. Mind you this doesn't include any repairs, replacement of aircraft or ship. It doesn't include Food, it doesn't include supplies, it doesn't include anything beyond the 'average pay' and the basic start platform for a Nimitz. I'm guessing if you wanted to 'try' to translate that into a Star Wars relative area that you are asking a planet to basically commit 20% of their GDP to maintain a ship. This also doesn't include building a dock, dry dock, paying contractors to train your people, paying contractors to do specialized work in dry dock, etc, etc, etc.

So...you wanted to see how it wasn't possible...there ya go.
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Vox
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

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I didn't look at the date of the last post...I feel rather...icky now...
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

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lolcats....
You have a right to remain silent... I hope to God you use it.
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Vox
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Re: Remember Midpoint Summit?

Post by Vox »

Shush... :(
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